Wednesday, September 28, 2005

When playing with trolls be sure to wear your synthetic prophylactic!

I have been over to the dark side and was jousting with the enemies of light.
Well actually I was just commenting on the above blog. I had thought that a good discussion of India, US and Iran would be elightening while having some good clean fun.

From time to time, I would go to ProgressNowAction.org and enjoyed making fun of the liberals there. Often I would continue a discussion until the other side did not respond.
I normally do not use derogatory labels or put down other's opinions but after the long thread at Thom Hartmans blog I have to say that there is no redeeming value to their discussions. I know that it is hard to change peoples minds, but since we could both explore new ideas in a community setting we might be able to understand each other and each side of an issue better.

Here is how the original coversation started out.
Kate:
"Prime Minister Singh will need extraordinary political sagacity and exemplary patience to convince Mr Bush that New Delhi is a mature democracy and a responsible nuclear power which can have cordial relations with both Washington and Tehran."
My Response:
I am sorry Kate, but often I don't see your point. What do you want us to think about? What is the discussion going to center around? Please frame it as a question to ask this community. Or, what is your goal?
If you had been reading the news you would see that Bush is convinced that India is "mature democracy and a responsible nuclear power". Look here:Bush Waives Nuclear-Related Sanctions on India and The U.S. and India: Sharing Nuclear Technology and lastly Bush embraces India's nuclear power program.
Looking at our history of mistakes with supporting non-democratic states, I can see that it would good for the US to influence them not to do the same. Democratic Peace!
While I see that the US has no option officially to support such deals, they do realize the need for India to have stable supplies of energy to grow and prosper as the second largest population of Muslims in the world.

I was probably a little hard on Katie, but was hoping that she would explain in detail what she felt about this information. The world is full of information but finding meaning to it is the hardest. Kate often did not explain what she felt but just posed questions or presented information without a context of the meaning.

I don't want go into every post and explain the process from somewhat rational debate (IMO) until it digressed into meaningless dribble. It came to the level of 1st graders fighting over whose dad is stronger or smarter or... I am going to respond to sunrise part two's last comment of length. He was the only one to respond to my comments except for another troll that tried to get into a discussion of "What is the discussion going to center around?"
Ren
I can understand going around a center, but what does a center go around?

A related question: is it possible to find an actual point in a center or does the search go on infinitely into smaller and smaller? I've always wondered about that one, wondered if you could help.

And now let me decipher the dog shit from sunny?
sunnyYes, so is "Djibouti", but its not one of the 46 that Mr "Democratic Peace" guy uses? [else where is the count of 15 F v NF?]
My response from earlier comments of sunny:
So I guess I will waste my time chasing every imaginary conflict that sunrise has thought up in his life. Again in this one for was a conflict from 91-94 with the FRUD causing a rebellion with about 1000 deaths. Djibouti also received independence in 1977. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti
And sunny response:
Yes "Djibouti" is on the list along with "Yugoslavia", and many many others, as far as the whole list goes, but its not one of the 46 in question, is it?

So to answer this this was a civil war defined as a rebellion and is not one of the 46 that Democratic Peace is referring to. Unfortunately I never saw the list of 46 wars that Dr. Rummel counts for his discussion but sunny kept referring Major Episodes of Political Violence
1946-2004
as the list of 46. Idiot did not bother to look at the definition of war and there is 311 incidents listed with only 46 international violence or wars not including internal wars (ie civil wars). Even though I explained the theory, he is too stupid to follow simple rules of a theory. This is when I knew that any more discussion with him is futile.
sunny
I remember now, Ron, you're the guy who rejected the notion that Americas freedom bombs had killed many Iraqis, or something. All those cluster bombs and Napalm killings were accidents or necessary for freedom etc. Bet you're a believer in 'Progressive Genocide' too. Give War a chance, eh Ron.
My response:
Again you have not explained what you mean. Since you are putting words in my mouth then what freedom bombs are you referring to (Clinton, Bush)? How many cluster bombs do you think have been used compared to suicide car bombs? Since you are the intellect here, why not explain what is the "Progressive Genocide" that you talk about?
Why not give freedom a chance for citizens around the world? Of course I am looking forward to eating your freedom fries in Zimbabwe.

sunny
Well, i didnt think i would have to explain, and besides, you never asked me to before.

I refered to "freedom bombs" in response to this from you.

The posit I was thinking of lately was that liberals deal in fuzzy numbers and don't like thinking of exact numbers. I do not disagree with the basic concept of freedom bombs but do not want to say they killed many (how many is many?). We can fight over the life of one person but allow millions around the world to die needlessly.
Death is not pretty and dying of anything is a trajedy but saying one death is worse because it was our bombs is ridiculous. I guess sunny would like a terrorist bomb to die by (less painful). I just asked for sunny to explain progressive genocide, but just responds with "you never asked be to before". He also never used it before (or myself) when I asked him about it. So I should ask him to explain something he never brought up. Ha,Ha,Ha.
sunny
I don't see what clinton or bush has to do with it, maybe you can explain?
Yes, there was three incidents of war with Iraq and wanted to know what freedom bombs he wanted me to defend. sunny being a good liberal, I could bring up and defend one incident but he could respond with outcomes of other incidents and thus mixing oranges and apples.
sunny
I'm sure more cluster bombs were used than car bombs, both in Yugoslavia and Iraq, and i know the cluster bombs were used first. But you brought it up.
Now mixing up incidents to confuse the issues. No car bombs in Yugoslavia. Much more car bombs aimed at civilian targets than cluster bombs. Again sunny is so obsessed with cluster bombs. A bomb that kills you, kills you and does not matter what it is composed of does it??? But again sunny wants a nice soft terrorist bomb with nails and glass.
sunny
Why not give freedom a chance before democracy and dropping freedom bombs. Take Yugoslavia as an example, peaceful for nearly fifty years under Tito, great place to go on holiday and what not, and when he dies the US and UK give support to every area wanting to secede in the form of dropping freedom bombs. Not to mention the support of the likes of "terrorists" groups such as Al Qeada, on the ground! ALL in the name of peace and deomcracy of course.
Peaceful for 50 years as long as we forget the ethnic cleansing. Right? And the The Bleiburg massacre of 250,000 deaths. And the political repression of all freedoms of his country with not free status until the US and NATO changed the country to free. I now realize that sunny likes communist regimes for his defense of Tito and Chavez.
My statement:
Your discussion of McDonalds number of franchises has no bearing unless we have access to the exact list of countries that McDonalds counts. As far as Kasmir not having a McDonalds, the theory holds that a country no matter where they place their McDonalds is then considered a McCountry and when any McCountry fights another McCountry this then violates the theory of McDonald's Peace Formula. Again changing the theory to fit the facts. No?
sunny's response:
It does have bearing if you consider that the number of democracies in the world according to Freedom House is about the same as the number of McDonalds countries around the world. Yet Mr "Deomcratic Peace" guy uses less than 90 democracies for his formula. I wonder what the results for the McDonalds Peace theory would be if one were to be so selective with McDonalds. It also has bearing if you use the list of democracies at Freedom House that includes all 120 or so democracies and not just a selected 87 or so. So, i ask again, do you have the list of "electoral democracies" listed by Freedom House?
So now after dispelling the McDonalds Peace Formula at least 3 times with 3 exceptions (Yugoslavia, India&Pakistan, US and Panama) he now goes back to this theory again. Sunny is an idiot. Freedom House does not rate as to democratic or not democratic, it rates as Free, Partial Free and Not Free. Dr. Rummel used the less than 90 because that is the number of free countries world wide. Stupid. I used a list of 92 McDonalds Franchises. Thusly close to the 88 free countries. If sunny wants to use 120 McDonalds countries this will just make it more likely that more wars result between McD and McD. If sunny wonders what the results will be then why does he not find out? Why answer when he fails to answer his own inquiry or my questions? He has failed to give any list that he uses, even when he refers to the wrong list.
more puke from sunny:
So, no, i'm not changing the theory to fit the facts, i'm pointing out the fact that the two are unfairly compared. To be fair [consistent] would be to have that list of "electoral deomcracies" from Freedom House, or use a selected list for McDonalds just as Mr "Deomcratic Peace" guy has with democracies. [say, by the number of freedom fries per capita or something]
We are basing the theory on Democratic Peace by a per capita number we can define. Freedom we are defining as a public good that everyone can partake of equally. Not everyone has access to McDonalds and have to pay for this service. Again sunny changes the theory to fix the results. He wants to eliminate any country that does not have enough Freedom Fries.
sunny dog poop:
That simpLy isnt true, take a look at that the list and yoU will see "war" listed. [Of which there is about a dozen between countries i believe]
The war categories at Major Episodes of Political Violence
1946-2004
are Ethnic War or Civil War and there is some "Adjective" War but like I said no "War". And if sunny was smart he could determine between international wars and wars inside borders. But maybe not?
sunny:
As for inconsistancies, off the top of my head, the one i remember because it was the last i lookwed at, was Nicuragua, circa 1989.
Inconsistancies to what? Nicaragua was not listed and was not free on Freedom House in 89. What an troll!
More bile from sunny:
Again, off the top of my head "India v Pakistan" is listed 7 times, and that as you kow has been because of an unsresolved issue left over from Colonial times. Not least becasue the british skipped off a year earlier than expected/announced, and amongst many problems caused there is the matter of Kashmir left in some kind of limbo status. BTW did you know the Indian PM is from an area of Pakistan. Making the whole thing look like a civil war, that's what you said about Palestine/Israel wasnt it.
What an idiot, India-Pakistan is listed 7 times but only one entry has any deaths of 1000 or more! Thus these conflicts are not of the 46 except the one of violence.
Ohhhh, I forgot all violence is derived from the evil empire of Britain and thus the son of the devil is the US. So skipping out a year earler caused a war some 52 years later. Actually some of the violence is attributed to Ghandi deciding to seperate Muslims and Hindus between the two countries. Sonia Gandhi is an Italian citizen. So what idiot. If you can not figure out what a civil war is then there is no hope for you!!!
More sunny:
Simply take all conflicts unresolved, and therefore repeated, as one conflict. Looking at the example above, it would reduce the count by six.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the fact that every war of course has its roots in the faults of the US", as clearly India v Pakistan is the fault of the British. Maybe you need to change your glasses.

Soooooooo, I stand corrected. Instead of the evil US it was the only other evil empire of Great Britain.
sunny rectal view:
Ive told you, and you appear to agree, that none of us know the number of selective democracies at the time of the initial conflict, thereby making the statistics merely a hunch. Thereby further nailing the coffin shut on Mr "deomcratic peace" guys theory.
We do not need to go by hunches. We know when out breaks of violence occurs and whether the countries involved were free or not. Of course sunny believes that 911 was a result of the crusades of the middle ages and thus we deserved the vengence of islamic extremist.
more sunny puke:

No one but you claimed the ganging up was random. Forget the ganging up part then, its stil 1 in 25.
As for me being able to produce the numbers, i cant. No one can, hence the theory put forward by Mr "deomcratic peace" guy is utter nonsense. And that's besides the fact that he selects one type of democracy for his theory.

Let me get this right. Ganging up is not random but the violence of Not Free countries is random. Sunny can not produce the numbers since he is stupid and unwilling to look at any other theories that may change how he sees the world. We have produced the numbers. Now I admit that I am learning and trying every day but others such as Dr. Rummel have examined these theories with numbers much more than me or sunny. Again it is not a type of democracy it is how free are the citizens of a nation is. Why do I communicate with such a troll?
sunny parting asshole:

Well isnt that a shame, falling flat on your face with the rose coloured glasses joke as you did.

I look forward to your reply about Chavez and "operation balboa".

All the best.

sunny again tries to divert attention to some mythical event in Victor Chavez's mind. But of course being a communist means you have to create external or internal enemies. I hope that this does not result in all the other communist regimes.

Well it has been fun and I learned a lot. In the end though it left a bad taste in my mouth, and did not evolve into a meaningful conversation that leads to better understanding. I am not sure where my community is but I am still looking for a good site that is willing to look at issues from many points of view with respect for all participants.

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