The Ugly Liberal II (How socialist see 10=60,000)

Since our last talking about sunny, he has told me to fuck off 5 times and then said this:

"I hope they kill each other ... too bad they both can't lose."
‹Nobel laureate Henry Kissinger (on the U.S. arming both sides of the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s)

"Do not support dictators. Do not sell them weapons."
‹Nobel laureate Jose Ramos Horta, East Timorese peace negotiator

In a perfect world it would be nice to not sell weapons to any country, but as sunny's article pointed out it would have been bad to have hegemony over the whole gulf region by one country.
Then sunny tries to accuse the US of genocide in Cambodia?

'They're not only not imaginative but they are just running these things -- bombing jungles,'' Nixon said. ''They have got to go in there and I mean really go in.'' Mr. Kissinger then cautioned: ''The Air Force is designed to fight an air battle against the Soviet Union. They are not designed for this war.'' But the president persisted, suggesting that the bombing campaign could be disguised as an airlift of supplies.

''I want them to hit everything,'' he said. ''I want them to use the big planes, the small planes, everything they can that will help out there, and let's start giving them a little shock.'' He ended by saying, ''Right now there is a chance to win this goddamn war, and that's probably what we are going to have to do because we are not going to do anything at the conference table.'' Mr. Kissinger immediately relayed the order: ''A massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. Anything that flies on anything that moves.''

***

"Kissinger loyally transmits the order to the Pentagon to carry out "a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. Anything that flies on anything that moves." That is the most explicit call for what we call genocide when other people do it that I’ve ever seen in the historical record."

My response:

Some use genocide is such a loose definition that is incorrect. Look here.

Vietcong in Cambodia thus bombing in Cambodia. War is hell. What areas of Cambodia were bombed? What were the deaths? This was not a genocide since not all the country was bombed and only selected routes were targeted.
We do know how much Pol Pot did here.

So I was trying to correct his misunderstanding of genocide, democide, etc. If he thinks this is the most explicit example of genocide, he need to go back to school. And my second response after his first mention of me being a fascist (goose-stepping):

Such an innocuous statement to say that democide occured flies in the face of reality.
"Anything that flies" is the US forces. But then not all planes were used since the majority was used in the north or stationed in other parts of the world. "Anything that moves" is refering to any vietcong movement or transportation of weapons into South Viet Nam. So anything in this speach does not refer to everything. No intentional targeting of civilians is implied or was carried out by the bombing campaign.

I would like to point out this quote with no response from sunny:

Here
is the face and voice of Genocide .

So he seemed to drop the Cambodia thread but does ask what "anything" means. And now on to another conspiracy, but not before:

It's interesting that you should again use the word of genocide wrongly and have just introduced the term "democide". So apart from the victory salute of "Sieg Hiel" we also get the "Heil Hitler" treatment, or should that be "Heil Rummel".

I will not bore you with the Iraqi conspiracy but just to say dribble and my response:

"Now, more than ever, the grieving father [Swadi Ghilan] says he wants to hunt down and kill not only Sunni guerrilla fighters but also Sunnis who give those fighters shelter and support. By that, he means killing most Sunnis in Iraq. ‘There are two Iraqs; it's something that we can no longer deny,' Ghilan said. ‘The army should execute the Sunnis in their neighborhoods so that all of them can see what happens, so that all of them learn their lesson.'"

Shiite Swadi Ghilan's two sons were murdered this year by Sunni insurgents.

Sunny's response:

It's also interesting that when we first crossed words on this board, you scoffed at the very suggestion that 100,000 Iraqis had been killed as per the Lancet report. Yet Rummel uses a far inferior statistical analysis method for his conclusions, which you lap up with glee.

Does the term 'having double standards' mean anything to you? Perhaps i shouldn't have used the word "anything", insert the word something instead.

***

Vietnam was that war where the Americans used chemical weapons wasnt it, that not only caused many civilian deaths, but also many deformities, which it still does today. Has Rummel done a calculation of how many? There was also the Napalm that burnt people, and whole villages wiped out, the old men the women and the childrn all killed by US troops.

What was it that these Vietnamese people did to America, what was the attack, what are the numbers of American towns and cities flatterned by Vietnamese bombs, the dams that were blown up, the chemical weapons of mass destruction. Has Rummel got a page somewhere on his democray peace effort covering all this?

An inquiring mind wants to know.

Sunny showed no information as to Dr. Rummels inferior statistics. I don't respond to his Viet Nam acts because no sense pointing out that the North was the agressor first and constantly violated any cease fire. The Viet cong even routed into Cambodia. But back to my response:

Let us see if we can compare the bereavement of a father that lost 2 sons with the terrorists that murdered his sons. Nope.
Again he is refering to "Sunni guerrilla fighters" and "Sunnis who give those fighters shelter and support". Thus he does not imply to kill all but only those that do the acts as well as those that support these acts. His all refers to people that turn a blind eye to the terrorists.

Sunny now uses this argument to imply that Iraqis that were killed by US forces should be hunted down and killed. No sense in arguing this point when he can not see that in a "police" state the responsibilities of the army is different and has some degree of protection from his actions. This is as long as he acts in a prudent manner. While the terrorists have no oversight or rules that must be abided by. I also never justified the fathers intent to harm others only that his feelings are justified. We also had an ongoing argument that Dr. Rummel has numbers of deaths that were inflicted by the US in Viet Nam War. I believe there was some numbers on the page I linked to but did not read the whole text for looking for this. Sunny responds by bringing up the Korean War and the atrocities the US committed. Again no sense to argue about the fact that the North started the war! But he does finally brng up some hard information in all the BS:

... the IBC’s new dossier. It reports that 24,865 civilians died in the first two years, 20% of them women and children, with the number twice as high in year two as in year one. Further, “US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims”, while “Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims”. Over half of all civilian deaths resulted from explosive devices, 64% of which were caused by air strikes – and the resistance don’t have an air force. That corroborates another aspect of Lancet, which is not only that most of the excess deaths have been caused by violence, but that the bulk of the violent deaths were caused by the occupiers.

I have not had a chance to respond to this since the links were so long and boring. Znet has no value to me since it also has Noam Chomsky and Ward Churchill. I also start looking at prior posts and started looking at fascism .
So again I will get back to these numbers.